Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

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If Sutton's reasoning is correct, and I think it is, unless the program was loose with its wording, this means that Judoman was probably looking to kill (i.e. following women in his car) again before he was noticed by the police and questioned. It's frightening to consider that Judoman was going to do it again until discovered.
 
JMC44 said:
If Sutton's reasoning is correct, and I think it is, unless the program was loose with its wording, this means that Judoman was probably looking to kill (i.e. following women in his car) again before he was noticed by the police and questioned. It's frightening to consider that Judoman was going to do it again until discovered.
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Transcript:

47:50
Hoping to catch the killer, Macro conducted saturation under cover surveillance of the general Claremont area. They also used the Police Air Wing and installed covert surveillance cameras on the streets. This resulted in the identification of men who follow women along the street and a number of rogue taxi drivers. Along with scores of other persons of interest they are thoroughly investigated and all but a few are eliminated.

Among those still being examined are two men who can provide no alibi for the times the three victims went missing. One was a known sexual pervert who had a semi-automatic rifle and ammunition concealed under the front seat of his car. Ciara's body is believed to have been abandoned in bushland on the night she was killed, and this man knew the area so well he could easily find his way along its bush tracks at night.

Another of those being investigated is a well educated martial arts practitioner from a wealthy English family who worked closely with Sarah Spiers and had once met Jane Rimmer. He was 34 at the time of the murders and live alone, not far from Claremont. During his police interviews he told a series of blatant lies, playing down his close working relationship with Sarah, and giving false alibis for the times Jane and Ciara went missing. His polygraph test results have proved inconclusive.

As yet there is insufficient evidence to link either of these men or other persons of interest to the murders.

49:48

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Interesting. The wording they have used does suggest both suspects were part of police surveillance that was set up soon after CG went missing. That would mean Judoman has been a suspect since 2007.

The "known sexual pervert"? Who the hell is that? Could it be LW? Could he have a had a gun? If so, you'd think the police would have leaked it because they were quite intent on putting him under extreme pressure.

So if it isn't LW, and there was another "known sexual pervert" with a gun under his seat stalking women in 1997 with no alibi who knows Eglington well, then how come we don't know about it?


Something doesn't add up.
 
You'd have to think the program wasn't loose with wording - the whole thing was carefully planned at trying to get some pay dirt information and the show focussed heavily on Judoman. Therefore you'd think the wording was carefully scripted.

The "known sexual pervert" confuses me. I'm pretty sure LW did not have a semi-automatic rifle concealed in his car (because it's likely police would have leaked it). LW also did not know (according to DM book) Pippidinny like the back of his hand.

So who is the known sexual pervert? He had no alibi but we can assume he passed his polygraph otherwise it would have been mentioned. Was he a low priority because of the polygraph and come 2008 the police decided to have another look at him? Is this guy the bee keeper - the guy who used to keep bees within meters of where CG was dumped? Or did police just make up a generic "sexual pervert" to get the public to nominate people they knew were perverts in the hope of identifying some new potential suspects?

Interestingly it notes they believe CG was dumped same night. Her body was discovered after 19 days so this suggests entomology and other methods were able to scientifically determine this.
 
Mel 1303 said:
Hi Sutton, I have been digging, but cant find any direct link between Judoman and BSD consulting, although he is in the same kind of industry.
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Thanks for looking. Maybe neither of them worked at BSD.

I am hoping that someone will come across some info in the future and remember this request.
 
Bartholemeus said:
I've seen these before and pretty confident they were discussed on BF thread but because of the innacuracies they were disregarded.
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If you remember any other old/rarely seen articles, please post what you recall (year, name of paper, detail, etc.) and I will try to track them down. Those of us who are newer to the case would love to see them.

Police have stated a number of times, right up until at least the 2008 CIA episode, that they believe the girls were killed soon after, and close by to the abduction point. Unless the CSK had a house near by, I struggle to see the CSK doing this either in his car, or in a public place. There's not a lot of secluded places around Claremont (I guess we know the cemetery and Lake Claremont Golf Course were secluded enough for a rape though). But cutting someone's throat? There'd be a lot of blood. And then he'd have to get the girls into his car with blood pissing everywhere.
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I don't recall reading they were killed close to the abduction point, but the police have said many things that I can't keep straight. Regardless, the only way they could know where they were killed is if they found the site. There is NO other way to know. Even if you had GPS or a video of the act, you'd still have to know what was happening and where.

I don't think the police have found the murder sites. But this is just my opinion, I'm open to other conclusions.

Throat

- In car unlikely - too much blood
- Could he have had a plastic lined boot? Maybe.
- Could have had a house close by

= Local kill unlikely unless has house close by
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If you had a house close by, why go there to make a huge, implicating mess? If he was going to keep them for a few days, then a house makes sense. But these were quick kills. Outside would be much easier and safer. IMO.

Far Away

- Would have had to subdue the girls for the trip. Maybe a head blow? Maybe a judo move?
- Would have had higher chance of privacy and less mess in his car.
- Short trip to dump site meaning less risk with dead body
- Any mess like a *****tonne of blood would be less liekly to be discovered.
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There are so many ways a predator could subdue their victim. A judo move is a good idea. Also, chloroform, a gun, punching the victim and having a disabled door latch, a taser (does that knock someone out or just cause pain?).

I lean towards the CSK disabling his victims locally then driving to somewhere within a few km's of the dump sites and doing his ritual and kill there.
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AGREED.
 
JMC44 said:
That's interesting reasoning Sutton. I hadn't thought of that but it seems likely from the passage you pointed out that Judoman was initially investigated because of following cars.

I just don't know what to think - there are compelling reasons to suspect guilt of a number of suspects based on the information covered in this thread. I still wait for the day the top news article in The Age is the arrest of a suspect in the Claremont murders.
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The reasoning was actually pointed out to me by enzeder, an occasional poster on this thread. I, apparently, have poor listening skills. But it does sound like Judoman got busted lurking ;)

It's hard to know what to think. I flip-flop between suspects frequently. There was one serial killer in the area and dozens of creepers.
 
•[Ciara's] clothes had all been stripped off and officers identified her by the jewellery she was wearing.

•[Jane] had been stripped naked and stabbed to death

•Yesterday [police] revealed that a woman saw a man acting suspiciously two days ago in the area where Ciara's body was found.

•Detectives believe the killer is a man who holds a position of trust.

•[Detectives] also believe he has a passion for meticulously polishing cars.

•[Police] believe he is a loner with a job, a car buff who drives everywhere and polishes his vehicle every day.

These are other interesting facts from the articles.

Question/Comments:
Stripped is different from naked. To me, it means the clothes were stripped or forcibly removed and left, scattered or piled about. Am I reading too much into this? Please chime in.

Maybe the killer came back to check on or visit his victim.

What's a position of trust? Is a cab driver a position of trust (you trust him or her to drive you home, you don't question getting in their car)?

Daily car polishing? Who does that? What's the detail based on--20-30 empty tubs of Turtle Wax found at the scene? Did he stop polishing after the murders? There was an early suspect whose parents owned a car detail company...but I need to look this up again...

It's interesting discussing the mystery, the facts and the psychological clues. As I've stated before, I read a lot of serial killer literature, and like most posters here, process morbid details with a 'clinical' mindset. But I do think of the girls, how young they were, how good and brave and feisty and everything we will never know. I try to remember them, on some level, every time I'm on the thread.
 
Sutton said:
•[Ciara's] clothes had all been stripped off and officers identified her by the jewellery she was wearing.

•[Jane] had been stripped naked and stabbed to death

•Yesterday [police] revealed that a woman saw a man acting suspiciously two days ago in the area where Ciara's body was found.

•Detectives believe the killer is a man who holds a position of trust.

•[Detectives] also believe he has a passion for meticulously polishing cars.

•[Police] believe he is a loner with a job, a car buff who drives everywhere and polishes his vehicle every day.

These are other interesting facts from the articles.

Question/Comments:
Stripped is different from naked. To me, it means the clothes were stripped or forcibly removed and left, scattered or piled about. Am I reading too much into this? Please chime in.

Maybe the killer came back to check on or visit his victim.

What's a position of trust? Is a cab driver a position of trust (you trust him or her to drive you home, you don't question getting in their car)?

Daily car polishing? Who does that? What's the detail based on--20-30 empty tubs of Turtle Wax found at the scene? Did he stop polishing after the murders? There was an early suspect whose parents owned a car detail company...but I need to look this up again...

It's interesting discussing the mystery, the facts and the psychological clues. As I've stated before, I read a lot of serial killer literature, and like most posters here, process morbid details with a 'clinical' mindset. But I do think of the girls, how young they were, how good and brave and feisty and everything we will never know. I try to remember them, on some level, every time I'm on the thread.
Click to expand...

I recall reading this stuff in the first quarter of the BF thread. I also recall the thread starting with a goal to disseminate all the known information into myth, fact and theory. When I read this stuff originally, straight away I realised there was incorrect information and assumed this was because, a) the article was very early in the piece, and b) it was by an Irish journo who was distanced from the crimes.

In hindsight, what I find interesting now is;

a) The article talks about the CSK most likely being anal/Germanic about cleaning his car. This article was released in 1997. Police identified LW in Sep 1997 but media didn't learn about him until April 1998. I always had the impression Macro released the "avid car cleaner" profile to the media which was heavily influenced by finding car detailing dockets at LW's house dated a few days after CG abduction. This article does nothing to suggest otherwise.

b) The position of trust looks like it is pointing to PW.

To me it seems clearer and clearer that Macro/SCS etc use media releases specifically tailored to specific suspects in order to increase the chances of getting specific and potentially incriminating evidence about them.

Have a look at the press releases from the last few years and you can all but guarantee the police are controlling or heavily influencing what media release with a view to foucussing on specific suspects.




I read about this in DM book and recollect it being talked about early in the piece but never really knew when this was all talked about. From reading DM's book I had the impression they released this profile to the media AFTER LW was a suspect - in almost tried to release a self-fulfilling prophecy. But this article was released in 2007 and the media didn't know about LW until April 2008. So they released a profile speculating the CSK was an avid car cleaner way beore they
 
Bartholemeus said:
...When I read this stuff originally, straight away I realised there was incorrect information and assumed this was because, a) the article was very early in the piece, and b) it was by an Irish journo who was distanced from the crimes.

In hindsight, what I find interesting now is;

a) The article talks about the CSK most likely being anal/Germanic about cleaning his car. This article was released in 1997. Police identified LW in Sep 1997 but media didn't learn about him until April 1998. I always had the impression Macro released the "avid car cleaner" profile to the media which was heavily influenced by finding car detailing dockets at LW's house dated a few days after CG abduction. This article does nothing to suggest otherwise...

...I read about this in DM book and recollect it being talked about early in the piece but never really knew when this was all talked about. From reading DM's book I had the impression they released this profile to the media AFTER LW was a suspect - in almost tried to release a self-fulfilling prophecy. But this article was released in 2007 and the media didn't know about LW until April 2008. So they released a profile speculating the CSK was an avid car cleaner way beore they
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RSBM. The last part of your comment was cut off, so not sure if I'm agreeing with you or not.

Ciara was found on April 3, 1997. The articles were published on April 4 and 5 of 1997. LW wasn't even on police radar for another six months. So a comment about car waxing made in April could not have been aimed at LW specifically.

The car waxing comment had to have come from something at one of the crime scenes. IMO. Do we have any articles mentioning this detail before Ciara was found? Or was it based off something found near her body?

You said you felt the article was incorrect bc it was released so early and had a foreign journalist. That could be true, especially the journalist aspect. But the fact that it was published so close to the crimes could also make it more likely to be true--before the police could totally shut down any leaks, it would have been hard to manage media during such a hectic time.
 
Sutton said:
RSBM. The last part of your comment was cut off, so not sure if I'm agreeing with you or not.

Ciara was found on April 3, 1997. The articles were published on April 4 and 5 of 1997. LW wasn't even on police radar for another six months. So a comment about car waxing made in April could not have been aimed at LW specifically.

The car waxing comment had to have come from something at one of the crime scenes. IMO. Do we have any articles mentioning this detail before Ciara was found? Or was it based off something found near her body?

You said you felt the article was incorrect bc it was released so early and had a foreign journalist. That could be true, especially the journalist aspect. But the fact that it was published so close to the crimes could also make it more likely to be true--before the police could totally shut down any leaks, it would have been hard to manage media during such a hectic time.
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Passed out mid post. Went to a 50th yesterday. Too many beers.

I find that interesting. I always thought when the media were pushing "our profilers say this guy cleans his car all the time" and "does a lot of driving" they were trying to push people towards LW. But not the case. They had the profile first and then once they identified LW, learned that he was quite keen on getting his car detailed.
 
Sutton said:
RSBM. The last part of your comment was cut off, so not sure if I'm agreeing with you or not.

Ciara was found on April 3, 1997. The articles were published on April 4 and 5 of 1997. LW wasn't even on police radar for another six months. So a comment about car waxing made in April could not have been aimed at LW specifically.

The car waxing comment had to have come from something at one of the crime scenes. IMO. Do we have any articles mentioning this detail before Ciara was found? Or was it based off something found near her body?

You said you felt the article was incorrect bc it was released so early and had a foreign journalist. That could be true, especially the journalist aspect. But the fact that it was published so close to the crimes could also make it more likely to be true--before the police could totally shut down any leaks, it would have been hard to manage media during such a hectic time.
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I always though the car cleaning was nothing more than speculation by a profiler working for police. There has been talk of cleaning chemicals being found at CG's site but there's no evidence this is true and from memory the person making these claims had a reputation of being a BS artist.

Could be true, but there is no article anywhere on the matter.

As for the Irish article - maybe it's more accurate than others but I think that is less likely.
 
Sutton said:
WA's Coroner's Court seems to move at the same speed as the US judicial system.

If this did go to the CC, what would be decided? If SS is deceased? If a specific suspect should be tried? If the investigation was flawed?
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My linited understanding is that as part of a coronial inquest, the details of the case become public. So media will trawl through it and release interesting bits to the public. I assume the public would have access as well. That means all suspects and all the intel on them is public.

If anyone has a better understanding, please post it.
 
The coroner investigates cause of death, and areas surrounding the death, including, where relevant, investigation into the death during an inquest. The coroner looks for ways the death may have been avoided, and can make recommendations about avoiding such a death in the future. The coroner in Australia has no power to convict any person- if the coroner believes they have found evidence of an indictable offence, it is then referred to the Department of Public Prosecutions.
WA inquests:
http://www.coronerscourt.wa.gov.au/W/what_is_an_inquest.aspx?uid=1393-9855-0518-7847

The coroner gets to look at the entire case- including the police investigation. The coroner can also call on suspects, or POIs, to give evidence, under oath, in the coroners court. There have been big cases in Australia where a coronial inquest has led to conviction- such as the Daniel Morcombe case, which was just so overwhelmingly big. A fresh review in a setting where witnesses and suspects are interviewed and cross examined was what was necessary to find those last few pieces that put the puzzle together, leading to the arrest and conviction of Daniel's murderer, and the discovery of Daniel's body.

Police will sometimes object to an inquest- sometimes because there is still an active, yet not public investigation into a particular suspect, or sometimes, a cynic might say, because they dont want the investigation placed under the spotlight.
 
Mel 1303 said:
The coroner investigates cause of death, and areas surrounding the death, including, where relevant, investigation into the death during an inquest. The coroner looks for ways the death may have been avoided, and can make recommendations about avoiding such a death in the future. The coroner in Australia has no power to convict any person- if the coroner believes they have found evidence of an indictable offence, it is then referred to the Department of Public Prosecutions.
WA inquests:
http://www.coronerscourt.wa.gov.au/W/what_is_an_inquest.aspx?uid=1393-9855-0518-7847

The coroner gets to look at the entire case- including the police investigation. The coroner can also call on suspects, or POIs, to give evidence, under oath, in the coroners court. There have been big cases in Australia where a coronial inquest has led to conviction- such as the Daniel Morcombe case, which was just so overwhelmingly big. A fresh review in a setting where witnesses and suspects are interviewed and cross examined was what was necessary to find those last few pieces that put the puzzle together, leading to the arrest and conviction of Daniel's murderer, and the discovery of Daniel's body.

Police will sometimes object to an inquest- sometimes because there is still an active, yet not public investigation into a particular suspect, or sometimes, a cynic might say, because they dont want the investigation placed under the spotlight.
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Do you know if any of the aspects to the case are made available to the public? From what I've read on this case it seems to be suggested that the entire case files will somehow be public
 
Bartholemeus said:
Do you know if any of the aspects to the case are made available to the public? From what I've read on this case it seems to be suggested that the entire case files will somehow be public
Click to expand...

I am no expert in this area. I believe that the coronial report is made public, however there can be suppression orders in some areas. During Daniel Morcombes inquest, many of the witnesses and POI's were identified by code, rather than name, however their evidence was reported on in the media. People under the age of 18 are also not always identified. I believe that in most cases the evidence is made public, just not the identity of all witnesses and POI's.

At the inquest into the death of Jason Nicklason in QLD, who was in police custody for rape when he committed suicide (also the prime suspect in the disappearance of Niamh Maye), the police who were with Nicklason at the time of his death were excused from testifying on the basis of privilege against incrimination.
http://www.australianmissingpersonsregister.com/Niamh.htm
 
Mel 1303 said:
I am no expert in this area. I believe that the coronial report is made public, however there can be suppression orders in some areas. During Daniel Morcombes inquest, many of the witnesses and POI's were identified by code, rather than name, however their evidence was reported on in the media. People under the age of 18 are also not always identified. I believe that in most cases the evidence is made public, just not the identity of all witnesses and POI's.

At the inquest into the death of Jason Nicklason in QLD, who was in police custody for rape when he committed suicide (also the prime suspect in the disappearance of Niamh Maye), the police who were with Nicklason at the time of his death were excused from testifying on the basis of privilege against incrimination.
http://www.australianmissingpersonsregister.com/Niamh.htm
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Very, very sad! I hope they find her!
Not completely unlike the Hayley Dodd case
 
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